Well I’m not a fundamentalist but I can help you sort that out. There’s nothing actually in the religion that says to force beards on anyone, they are considered a good deed if done to emulate the Prophets but there’s no sin on anyone who can’t have one. ISIS basically made that rule up, but then again they did the exact opposite of so much of the religion it’s hardly a surprise anymore.
Second, there’s nothing in the religion saying women have to cover their faces, it’s explicitly allowed by hadith. The reason some people do it is because they have a different mindset than you do; to them its about having privacy. Muslim women who cover their faces are trying to keep out of the public eye and ask you to judge their ideas and speech rather than focus on what makeup they have on. You may not realize it, but they generally think that ‘western’ women are oppressed because nobody takes them seriously or gives them attention unless they make themselves prettier. The other part of the mindset is that when you treasure something you guard it and not necessarily show it off to everyone. Muslim men are expected to guard women in their family with their own lives.
Covering oneself is therefore NOT about “making your own lust everyone else’s problem” but its about one’s own privacy. You can never control other people’s lusts and even ISIS didn’t claim to try to do that. The Taliban claimed that they were doing it for CULTURAL reasons not religious ones, because they knew they had no actual religious textual basis to make such a claim and that’s why they were condemned by Muslim countries worldwide. Lastly, men AND women are expected to cover themselves, which is why you see men in turbans and women in headscarves.
So on your first point, when I say fundamentalist, I mean people like ISIS, the Taliban or this chucklefuck of a preacher, who may not have any religious justification for their words or actions, but impose it on others anyhow, and take any kind of deviation of their idea of Islam to be infidelity. This is the same sort of shit many fundamental Evangelicals do with Christianity, where their interpretation or ideas on the faith are imposed on others. Their actions may not be justifiable to a sane Christian or Muslim, but to them they are the true believers, and will treat anyone else as heretical.
I mean to the women who cover by choice, Especially via niqab or hijab I’ve always took it as a form of piety towards God, much like how habits are worn by nuns or sashes by buddhists monks. And to that extent I respect it, because they are making that choice to worship in the way they see fit. It’s about their devotion to god rather than their role in society. The other points you bring out about privacy or being respected for their ideas rather than beauty, that still feels like it comes down to the weakness of men. And don’t get me wrong, Western society is guilty of this as well. I don’t even have to go off this site to see people objectifying women, and how women who post online often have to be very careful on what they show and reveal. A recent trend I’ve seen online is that women will even censor their armpits or legs in pictures, cause there is no part of the human body people won’t fetishize. This is a weakness in nearly all societies, and slut and body shaming is something that still happens frequently in western cultures. For the most part though, Women can still live their day to day lives without sacrificing their own comfort or expression, and men are expected to exercise self control. To me, in places where full burqa is mandatory, it just seems like the burden is placed more upon women to make up for men’s weaknesses.
Like you’ve said, I am a westerner living in western society (Though I have lived somewhat outside of it for a number of years) with a western perspective. But from someone who comes from a fundamentalist Christian background, who left because I was tired of the hypocrisy, I can’t help but see that same hypocrisy in people like this preacher.
One correction: the preacher is irrelevant, he’s the equivalent of Daily Mail finding an awful YouTube comment and trying to generalize people on that basis. That’s why I said this is not how any of it works. I have yet to meet a Muslim who agrees with what he said.
The Taliban are the only place I know of that have mandatory burqas and they said that they’re doing it for cultural norms, not religious reasons. There’s a reason Muslim leaders worldwide have been trying to pressure the Taliban to allow women in school etc as the religion actually commands women (as well as men) to be educated and learn to read etc.
I’m not disagreeing with the Daily Mail being a rag, but a preacher is going to have far more reach and influence than a random youtube comment, or a teenager on Twitter being way in over their head. This also isn’t the only preacher or imam who thinks like this. Is there an unfair amount of attention put upon these people over well adjusted, down to earth Muslims? Absolutely, but I still get to make fun of the lunatics who are brought to my attention.
Saudi Arabia recently lifted compulsory Abaya on women in 2019, which is what most people think of when we say “burqa” requirement. That is still very recent since it was a state mandated thing, and there are still countries that require other types of covering. I mean the big news last year was the fight over the head covering law in Iran, which clearly shows not all muslims are on the same page when it comes to covering.
Look, my criticisms aren’t on Islam itself. My original criticism is on this irrelevant muslim preacher and people like him being hypocrites, and how those who impose morality on others are usually doing so to cover for their own lack of self control.
Well I’m not a fundamentalist but I can help you sort that out. There’s nothing actually in the religion that says to force beards on anyone, they are considered a good deed if done to emulate the Prophets but there’s no sin on anyone who can’t have one. ISIS basically made that rule up, but then again they did the exact opposite of so much of the religion it’s hardly a surprise anymore.
Second, there’s nothing in the religion saying women have to cover their faces, it’s explicitly allowed by hadith. The reason some people do it is because they have a different mindset than you do; to them its about having privacy. Muslim women who cover their faces are trying to keep out of the public eye and ask you to judge their ideas and speech rather than focus on what makeup they have on. You may not realize it, but they generally think that ‘western’ women are oppressed because nobody takes them seriously or gives them attention unless they make themselves prettier. The other part of the mindset is that when you treasure something you guard it and not necessarily show it off to everyone. Muslim men are expected to guard women in their family with their own lives.
Covering oneself is therefore NOT about “making your own lust everyone else’s problem” but its about one’s own privacy. You can never control other people’s lusts and even ISIS didn’t claim to try to do that. The Taliban claimed that they were doing it for CULTURAL reasons not religious ones, because they knew they had no actual religious textual basis to make such a claim and that’s why they were condemned by Muslim countries worldwide. Lastly, men AND women are expected to cover themselves, which is why you see men in turbans and women in headscarves.
So on your first point, when I say fundamentalist, I mean people like ISIS, the Taliban or this chucklefuck of a preacher, who may not have any religious justification for their words or actions, but impose it on others anyhow, and take any kind of deviation of their idea of Islam to be infidelity. This is the same sort of shit many fundamental Evangelicals do with Christianity, where their interpretation or ideas on the faith are imposed on others. Their actions may not be justifiable to a sane Christian or Muslim, but to them they are the true believers, and will treat anyone else as heretical.
I mean to the women who cover by choice, Especially via niqab or hijab I’ve always took it as a form of piety towards God, much like how habits are worn by nuns or sashes by buddhists monks. And to that extent I respect it, because they are making that choice to worship in the way they see fit. It’s about their devotion to god rather than their role in society. The other points you bring out about privacy or being respected for their ideas rather than beauty, that still feels like it comes down to the weakness of men. And don’t get me wrong, Western society is guilty of this as well. I don’t even have to go off this site to see people objectifying women, and how women who post online often have to be very careful on what they show and reveal. A recent trend I’ve seen online is that women will even censor their armpits or legs in pictures, cause there is no part of the human body people won’t fetishize. This is a weakness in nearly all societies, and slut and body shaming is something that still happens frequently in western cultures. For the most part though, Women can still live their day to day lives without sacrificing their own comfort or expression, and men are expected to exercise self control. To me, in places where full burqa is mandatory, it just seems like the burden is placed more upon women to make up for men’s weaknesses.
Like you’ve said, I am a westerner living in western society (Though I have lived somewhat outside of it for a number of years) with a western perspective. But from someone who comes from a fundamentalist Christian background, who left because I was tired of the hypocrisy, I can’t help but see that same hypocrisy in people like this preacher.
One correction: the preacher is irrelevant, he’s the equivalent of Daily Mail finding an awful YouTube comment and trying to generalize people on that basis. That’s why I said this is not how any of it works. I have yet to meet a Muslim who agrees with what he said.
The Taliban are the only place I know of that have mandatory burqas and they said that they’re doing it for cultural norms, not religious reasons. There’s a reason Muslim leaders worldwide have been trying to pressure the Taliban to allow women in school etc as the religion actually commands women (as well as men) to be educated and learn to read etc.
I’m not disagreeing with the Daily Mail being a rag, but a preacher is going to have far more reach and influence than a random youtube comment, or a teenager on Twitter being way in over their head. This also isn’t the only preacher or imam who thinks like this. Is there an unfair amount of attention put upon these people over well adjusted, down to earth Muslims? Absolutely, but I still get to make fun of the lunatics who are brought to my attention.
Saudi Arabia recently lifted compulsory Abaya on women in 2019, which is what most people think of when we say “burqa” requirement. That is still very recent since it was a state mandated thing, and there are still countries that require other types of covering. I mean the big news last year was the fight over the head covering law in Iran, which clearly shows not all muslims are on the same page when it comes to covering.
Look, my criticisms aren’t on Islam itself. My original criticism is on this irrelevant muslim preacher and people like him being hypocrites, and how those who impose morality on others are usually doing so to cover for their own lack of self control.