Why would home gardeners optimize for yield and cost effectiveness? They can’t deploy automation or economies of scale.
You garden at home because you enjoy the flavor, freshness, and variety. Those are the perks. Miss me with those mealy, flavorless grocery store tomatoes.
I came to the realization earlier today that there are an alarming number of people who theorize that they can just live off homegrown and composting. They think they can challenge big agriculture by “going off the grid” and that society would be better without subsidized industrial farming.
That’s why they would optimize for yield and cost effectiveness. They think they can compete.
EDIT: Also I’ve tried making tomatoes in colder climates before and they almost always succumb to disease. Huge success with zuccini and onions, though.
man, you’re going to be really alarmed when you hear about community gardens and greenhouses…
the idea for most people isn’t to completely replace all farming, but to reduce it, grow food instead of a lawn, have some fresh delicious non-gmo shit…
have something to fall back on when the nuclear apocalypse happens…
industrial farming will never be as nutritious, delicious, or satisfying as home-grown…
p.s. working with soil has natural antidepressant properties…
This Pretty outdated (from 2007) and I position it in more pop sci than hard science. But from my own perspective, gardening makes me chill out for sure.
I would be cautious of statements like these. Because this way it is easy to get lost in your own idealization of community gardening. I mean, I agree that we should do more community gardening and that it would probably benefit most people.
But how do you know that industrial farming won’t ever be as nutritious/delicious as homegrown? How would you fall back on your own garden in case of a nuclear catastrophe? Wouldn’t your soil just be as contaminated? What are your arguments against GMO crops apart from all the obvious economic reasons? Wouldn’t be some genetic mutations be really good actually? I mean the food we eat is already heavily bred and mutated, even most homegrown stuff. Try eating a wild carrot or wild apple. Also, the article you shared regarding the antidepressant properties of soil makes some same mistakes. It is overly idealistic. The actual underlying study is much less ambitious and I’m not sure you can really claim that "working with soil has natural antidepressant properties ".
I love cooking and don’t really like eating out. But if a canteen/cafeteria is run well, it can sure cook much larger quantities of food that are just as delicious and nutritious. It just scales better. I would argue the same is true for agriculture. (Although we definitely would need to change agriculture by a lot!)
But how do you know that industrial farming won’t ever be as nutritious/delicious as homegrown?
that’s just the nature of the beast. crops aren’t rotated, the soil is artificially bolstered with junk fertilizers and pesticides.
things are harvested before they’re ripe, and then ripen on the semi-truck…
it’s just not nearly as good…
go try some home grown, organic, actually fresh food.
How would you fall back on your own garden in case of a nuclear catastrophe? Wouldn’t your soil just be as contaminated?
sea lion, it doesn’t have to be nuclear… it’s obviously better to have a garden in any catastrophe… in recent memory, shortages from covid…
if it were nuclear, no i’m hypothetically staying where i am because it wasn’t contaminated… ffs
What are your arguments against GMO crops apart from all the obvious economic reasons?
Roundup/ glyophosphate causes cancer. We were stopped from even allowing “gmo free” from food labels for years… i’m not going to explain any further than that, go ahead and type other lists of tangential questions with no intention of actual conversation, sea lion.
Wouldn’t be some genetic mutations be really good actually?
this stupid strawman again? yeah, duh, i’m not against the evolution of crops… i’m against genetically modifying them to be immune to Glyophosphate, the spraying crops with that, then giving farmers and consumers cancer…
like the things that have actually happened with GMO’s, healthwise…
choice is important… how about long term knowledge? we know a tomato doesn’t cause cancer… some random new chemical? we don’t know and can’t control that, and i don’t want to be Monsanto’s lab rat…
mean the food we eat is already heavily bred and mutated, even most homegrown stuff. Try eating a wild carrot or wild apple.
no fucking shit, you disingenuous bastard…
no fucking shit… fuck your stupid strawmen, YOU KNOW i’m not talking about any and all genetic mutations… that’s the dumbest, paid for, corporate argument i’ve every heard…
and i’ve heard that trash repeated over and over again as if that’s related…
and it’s not
Also, the article you shared regarding the antidepressant properties of soil makes some same mistakes. It is overly idealistic.
awfully vague counter claim, sea lion… and there are many such studies on this. but even if not directly, everyone that gardens can attest that there are mental health benefits
Wow there, you assume I was arguing in bad faith but I was just genuinely curious to discuss this. No need in being so rude.
I think you still got a lot mixed up here. When I was talking about GMO plants I didn’t talk about all the awful practices of today’s capitalist corporations. But GMO in itself could be great for feeding many people in a world after capitalism. Glyphosat and other pesticides are really not the same as GMO. Do you actually know what GMO means and how it works? I’m not necessarily a fan of GMO and think we should be very cautious with it. But just dismissing it as obviously evil without understanding what it means is wrong imo.
Similarly I think it is not really clear what we discuss when er talk about industrial agriculture. In my mind it is solely the production of agricultural crops at a large scale and by means of employing machines. It seems like you think of it like our modern capitalist agriculture. This thread was originally about how to feed huge populations of people and I think we will need industrial agriculture. However, what we understand today under industrial agriculture is just one way of doing it. I obviously know that today’s conventionally farmed crops and monocultures are really bad for biodiversity and the environment. And I sure want to see then gone just like you. But even organic farming relies a lot on industrial agriculture. And I don’t think it is really true that homegrown crops in small community gardens are necessarily more nutritious or delicious than organically+industrially farmed crops.
And this was my overall point. Just because you feel like something tastes/looks better doesn’t mean it is actually better. That’s what I mean by idealization. I don’t think we get that far just claiming some practices are evil and others are good.
I’m gardening myself and sure it does help me with my mental health. But that is because I can choose to work in the garden whenever I feel like it. But if I had to work on a farm because we need all the people working the fields, it would certainly not improve but rather deteriorate my mental and physical health. But still, this has nothing to do with your claim that soil bacteria actually function as natural antidepressants.
And please seek help with your anger issues if you haven’t already. It is totally off to call someone “disingenuous bastard” if they just try to start a debate. (Just to be sure: I don’t mean this in a passive-aggressive way.)
Absolutely you can compete my dude. Just not if you’re doing it commercially. If you have the space you can grow everything you need and save a ton of money.
The problem is everyone can’t do that. It doesn’t scale. To feed 8 billion you need the big ag machine. But you, yourself, if you want to focus your time and effort on digging in the soil instead of being a corporate cog, can absolutely support your needs for very cheap.
How northern are we talking? Our tomatoes didn’t so well last year in Northern Ohio, but the summer before i was absolutely drowning in cherry tomatoes!
Why would home gardeners optimize for yield and cost effectiveness? They can’t deploy automation or economies of scale.
You garden at home because you enjoy the flavor, freshness, and variety. Those are the perks. Miss me with those mealy, flavorless grocery store tomatoes.
I came to the realization earlier today that there are an alarming number of people who theorize that they can just live off homegrown and composting. They think they can challenge big agriculture by “going off the grid” and that society would be better without subsidized industrial farming.
That’s why they would optimize for yield and cost effectiveness. They think they can compete.
EDIT: Also I’ve tried making tomatoes in colder climates before and they almost always succumb to disease. Huge success with zuccini and onions, though.
man, you’re going to be really alarmed when you hear about community gardens and greenhouses…
the idea for most people isn’t to completely replace all farming, but to reduce it, grow food instead of a lawn, have some fresh delicious non-gmo shit…
have something to fall back on when the nuclear apocalypse happens…
industrial farming will never be as nutritious, delicious, or satisfying as home-grown…
p.s. working with soil has natural antidepressant properties…
Ok, I’m just curious, do you have a source for that soil antidepressants statement? Not being argumentative, legit want to read the source.
This Pretty outdated (from 2007) and I position it in more pop sci than hard science. But from my own perspective, gardening makes me chill out for sure.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/66840#1
From a comment thread lower down:
permaculture.com.au/why-gardening-makes-you-happy-and-cures-depression/
https://permaculture.com.au/why-gardening-makes-you-happy-and-cures-depression/
I would be cautious of statements like these. Because this way it is easy to get lost in your own idealization of community gardening. I mean, I agree that we should do more community gardening and that it would probably benefit most people.
But how do you know that industrial farming won’t ever be as nutritious/delicious as homegrown? How would you fall back on your own garden in case of a nuclear catastrophe? Wouldn’t your soil just be as contaminated? What are your arguments against GMO crops apart from all the obvious economic reasons? Wouldn’t be some genetic mutations be really good actually? I mean the food we eat is already heavily bred and mutated, even most homegrown stuff. Try eating a wild carrot or wild apple. Also, the article you shared regarding the antidepressant properties of soil makes some same mistakes. It is overly idealistic. The actual underlying study is much less ambitious and I’m not sure you can really claim that "working with soil has natural antidepressant properties ".
I love cooking and don’t really like eating out. But if a canteen/cafeteria is run well, it can sure cook much larger quantities of food that are just as delicious and nutritious. It just scales better. I would argue the same is true for agriculture. (Although we definitely would need to change agriculture by a lot!)
lol, fine
that’s just the nature of the beast. crops aren’t rotated, the soil is artificially bolstered with junk fertilizers and pesticides.
things are harvested before they’re ripe, and then ripen on the semi-truck…
it’s just not nearly as good…
go try some home grown, organic, actually fresh food.
sea lion, it doesn’t have to be nuclear… it’s obviously better to have a garden in any catastrophe… in recent memory, shortages from covid…
if it were nuclear, no i’m hypothetically staying where i am because it wasn’t contaminated… ffs
Roundup/ glyophosphate causes cancer. We were stopped from even allowing “gmo free” from food labels for years… i’m not going to explain any further than that, go ahead and type other lists of tangential questions with no intention of actual conversation, sea lion.
this stupid strawman again? yeah, duh, i’m not against the evolution of crops… i’m against genetically modifying them to be immune to Glyophosphate, the spraying crops with that, then giving farmers and consumers cancer…
like the things that have actually happened with GMO’s, healthwise…
choice is important… how about long term knowledge? we know a tomato doesn’t cause cancer… some random new chemical? we don’t know and can’t control that, and i don’t want to be Monsanto’s lab rat…
no fucking shit, you disingenuous bastard…
no fucking shit… fuck your stupid strawmen, YOU KNOW i’m not talking about any and all genetic mutations… that’s the dumbest, paid for, corporate argument i’ve every heard…
and i’ve heard that trash repeated over and over again as if that’s related…
and it’s not
awfully vague counter claim, sea lion… and there are many such studies on this. but even if not directly, everyone that gardens can attest that there are mental health benefits
Wow there, you assume I was arguing in bad faith but I was just genuinely curious to discuss this. No need in being so rude.
I think you still got a lot mixed up here. When I was talking about GMO plants I didn’t talk about all the awful practices of today’s capitalist corporations. But GMO in itself could be great for feeding many people in a world after capitalism. Glyphosat and other pesticides are really not the same as GMO. Do you actually know what GMO means and how it works? I’m not necessarily a fan of GMO and think we should be very cautious with it. But just dismissing it as obviously evil without understanding what it means is wrong imo.
Similarly I think it is not really clear what we discuss when er talk about industrial agriculture. In my mind it is solely the production of agricultural crops at a large scale and by means of employing machines. It seems like you think of it like our modern capitalist agriculture. This thread was originally about how to feed huge populations of people and I think we will need industrial agriculture. However, what we understand today under industrial agriculture is just one way of doing it. I obviously know that today’s conventionally farmed crops and monocultures are really bad for biodiversity and the environment. And I sure want to see then gone just like you. But even organic farming relies a lot on industrial agriculture. And I don’t think it is really true that homegrown crops in small community gardens are necessarily more nutritious or delicious than organically+industrially farmed crops.
And this was my overall point. Just because you feel like something tastes/looks better doesn’t mean it is actually better. That’s what I mean by idealization. I don’t think we get that far just claiming some practices are evil and others are good.
I’m gardening myself and sure it does help me with my mental health. But that is because I can choose to work in the garden whenever I feel like it. But if I had to work on a farm because we need all the people working the fields, it would certainly not improve but rather deteriorate my mental and physical health. But still, this has nothing to do with your claim that soil bacteria actually function as natural antidepressants.
And please seek help with your anger issues if you haven’t already. It is totally off to call someone “disingenuous bastard” if they just try to start a debate. (Just to be sure: I don’t mean this in a passive-aggressive way.)
lol, nice try sea lion
Wtf is wrong with you?
I’m telling you that some people think it can be a replacement. I’m explaining to you that this is an unfortunately common stance.
some people think the moon is made of cheese but i’m not losing any sleep over it
Everybody knows the moon is made of cheese.
Like no cheese I’ve ever tasted.
(Just beware of vending machines with dreams of skiing.)
Absolutely you can compete my dude. Just not if you’re doing it commercially. If you have the space you can grow everything you need and save a ton of money.
The problem is everyone can’t do that. It doesn’t scale. To feed 8 billion you need the big ag machine. But you, yourself, if you want to focus your time and effort on digging in the soil instead of being a corporate cog, can absolutely support your needs for very cheap.
How northern are we talking? Our tomatoes didn’t so well last year in Northern Ohio, but the summer before i was absolutely drowning in cherry tomatoes!
47th Lat, so a fair bit further but the high winds of my region could contribute to hanging crops declines.
It’s certainly something besides latitude. Western Canada grows hella tomatoes and that’s 49 lat at the bare minimum
British Columbia for sure has some very diverse hardiness zones.
My parents are around 44 deg lat and their tomatoes do very well. It seems like something else must be limiting your success.