In the same order you asked:

Safe, easy to use, polished and reliable ; Someone else tried to emulate the first one success ; Poorly executed open-source alternative you can selfhost.

All of them speak the git and are essentially web UIs made to manage it and the creation of repositories and setting up permissions.

They do lock you in on handheld devices but that seems to be a consequence of the fact that they are storing all emails encrypted on the server. After reading this link (“[…]Since IMAP can’t decrypt your emails[…]”), I agree that they are just implementing PGP with an extra steps and creating an unneeded layer (the bridge).

Yes, that’s precisely the problem there. You can use PGP with any generic IMAP provider and that will work just fine with handheld devices. There are multiple mail clientes capable of doing and all your mail is still encrypted on the server. Proton just made an alternative implementation that forces you into proprietary systems because it’s more convenient for them.

Those kinds of setups with servers encrypting your mail and still delivering over IMAP are fairly easy to implement, here’s an example. They simply decided to go all proprietary.

The reason I would not compare it to XMPP is because they are still using SMTP. It is when they stop using SMTP or force others to use something e

On a generic mail system SMTP is used in two places: 1) from your mail client to your provider and 2) between your provider and other providers. Proton is NOT using SMPT for the first step, making it non-standard and much more closed.

I want to learn about PGP and how to encrypt email. Someone sells that service, great. And it is not like I cannot send normal emails to anyone else.

I don’t disagree with you, I believe it as well. PGP is it stands is cumbersome.

The thing is that could’ve still implemented a easy-to-use, “just login and send email” type of web client and abstracted the user from the PGP complexities while still delivering everything over IMAP/SMTP.

They are using the same standard, not some made up version of SMTP (when sending to other servers, I assume any email from client A to client B both being Proton customer never leave their server, so no need for a new protocol).

You assume correctly, but when your mail client is trying to send an email instead of using SMTP to submit to their server, you’re using a proprietary API in a proprietary format and the same goes for receiving email.

This is well documented and to prove it further if you want to configure Proton in a generic mail client like Thunderbird then you’re required to install a “birdge”, a piece of software that essentially simulates a local IMAP and SMPT server (that Thunderbird communicates with) and then will convert those requests into requests their proprietary API understands. There are various issues with this approach the most obvious one is that it is an extra step, there’s also the issue that in iOS for eg. you’re forced to use their mail app because you can’t run the bridge there.

The bridge is an afterthought to support generic email clients and generic protocols, only works how and where they say it should work and may be taken away at any point.

while being fully open source using open standards

Delivering your data over proprietary APIs doesn’t count as “open standards” - sorry.

Would it be inaccurate to say that your fear is that Proton pulls an “Embrace, Extend, Extinguish” move?

No, it isn’t. But they never “embraced” as there was never direct IMAP to their servers, instead it’s a proprietary API serving data in a proprietary format.

I also see how that would make Proton like WhatsApp, which has its own protocol and locks its users in.

The problem isn’t that taking down the bridge would make Proton like WhatsApp. It’s the other way around, when they decided to build their internals with proprietary protocols and solutions instead eg. IMAP+SMTP they became the WhatsApp. Those things shouldn’t be addons or an afterthought, they should be bult into the core.

This clearly shows that making open solutions ranks very low their company and engineering priority list. If it was at the top they would’ve built it around IMAP instead.

I could download an archive of everything I have on Proton without a hitch.

Yes you can, but the data will come in more property formats hard to upload to anywhere else - at least for some of the data. They’ve improved this situation but it’s still less than ideal. In the beginning they would export contacts and calendars in some JSON format, I see they moved to vCard and iCal now.

I work in another big4 company, and I have a strong feeling that your claims apply to us as well.

That’s sad, but it is the world we live in.

Okay, here are a few thoughts:

• Companies like blame someone when things go wrong, if they chose open-source there’s isn’t someone to sue then;
• Buying proprietary stuff means you’re outsourcing the risks of such product;
• Corruption pushes for proprietary: they might be buying software that is made by someone that is close to the CTO, CEO or other decision marker in the company, an old friend, family or straight under the table corruption;
• Most non-tech companies use services from consulting companies in order to get their software developed / running. Consulting companies often fall under the last point that besides that they have have large incentives from companies like Microsoft to push their proprietary services. For eg. Microsoft will easily provide all of a consulting companies employees with free Azure services, Office and other discounts if they enter in an exclusivity agreement to sell their tech stack. To make things worse consulting companies live of cheap developers (like interns) and Microsoft and their platform makes things easier for anyone to code and deploy;
• Microsoft provider a cohesive ecosystem of products that integrate really well with each other and usually don’t require much effort to get things going - open-source however, usually requires custom development and a ton of work to work out the “sharp angles” between multiple solutions that aren’t related and might not be easily compatible with each other;
• Open-source requires a level of expertise that more than half of the developers and IT professionals simply don’t have. This aspect reinforces the last point even more. Senior open-source experts are more expensive than simply buying proprietary solutions;
• If we consider the price of a senior open-source expert + software costs (usually free) the cost of open-source is considerable lower than the cost of cheap developers + proprietary solutions, however consider we are talking about companies. Companies will always prefer to hire more less expensive and less proficient people because that means they’re easier to replace and you’ll pay less taxes;
• Companies will prefer to hire services from other companies instead of employees thus making proprietary vendors more compelling. This happens because from an accounting / investors perspective employees are bad and subscriptions are cool (less taxes, no responsibilities etc);
• The companies who build proprietary solutions work really hard to get vendors to sell their software, they provide commissions, support and the promises that if anything goes wrong they’ll be there. This increases the number of proprietary-only vendors which reinforces everything above. If you’re starting to sell software or networking services there’s little incentive for you to go pure “open-source”. With less companies, less visibility, less professionals (and more expensive), less margins and less positive market image, less customers and lesser profits.

Unfortunately things are really poised and rigged against open-source solutions and anyone who tries to push for them. The “experts” who work in consulting companies are part of this as they usually don’t even know how to do things without the property solutions. Let me give you an example, once I had to work with E&Y, one of those big consulting companies, and I realized some awkward things while having conversations with both low level employees and partners / middle management, they weren’t aware that there are alternatives most of the time. A manager of a digital transformation and cloud solutions team that started his career E&Y, wasn’t aware that there was open-source alternatives to Google Workplace and Microsoft 365 for e-mail. I probed a TON around that and the guy, a software engineer with an university degree, didn’t even know that was Postfix was and the history of email.

Yeah it’s all about outsourcing the risk to someone.

Sure, you’re using a bridge they develop and they can away or break at any point. It’s not the best ideal. Why support a company that is actively trying to turn open protocols into more closed stuff? Makes no sense. That type of non-sense is what got us into the situation we’ve now with WhatsApp and other messengers.

???

Any e-mail service that doesn’t provide standard IMAP/SMTP directly to their servers and uses custom protocols is yet another attempt at vendor lock-in and nobody should use it.

What Proton is doing is pushing for vendor lock-in at any possible point so you’re stuck with what they deem acceptable because it’s easier for them to build a service this way and makes more sense from a business / customer retention perspective. Proton is doing to e-mail about the same that WhatsApp and Messenger did to messaging - instead of just using an open protocol like XMPP they opted for their closed thing in order to lock people into their apps. People in this community seem to be okay with this just because they sell the “privacy” cool-aid.

People complain when others use Google or Microsoft for e-mail around here, but at least in those providers you can access your e-mail through standard protocols. How ironic it is to see privacy / freedom die hard fans suddenly going for a company that is far less open than the big providers… just because of marketing. :)

Proton is just a company that wants profits and found out there was a niche of people who would buy into everything that they label as “encryption” and “privacy” no matter what the cost. They’ve learnt how to weaponize “privacy” to push more and more vendor lock-in. Not even Apple does this bullshit.

Now, I can see anyone commenting “oh but they have to it because of security” - no they don’t. That’s bullshit.

Any generic IMAP/SMPT provider + Thunderbird + PGP will provide the same level of security that Proton does - that is assuming they didn’t mess their client-side encryption/decryption or key storage in some way. PGP makes sure all your e-mail content is encrypted and that’s it, doesn’t matter if it’s done by Thunderbird and the e-mails are stored in Gmail OR if it’s done by the Proton bridge and the e-mails are on their servers, the same PGP tech the only difference is the client. So, no, there isn’t the reason to do it the way they do it besides vendor lock-in.

And since when did I offend you? Unless… you’ve been “grumble quietly until a final straw is added to the stack”

It’s funny how people completely lost their minds when they could see a potential connection between what he said and some political side while those same people are perfectly fine with ignoring what’s really wrong with Proton and its marketing - even though it all goes against their core beliefs of “privacy” “security” “open-source” etc.

Edit to include what I didn’t have time to type:

Any e-mail service that doesn’t provide standard IMAP/SMTP directly to their servers and uses custom protocols is yet another attempt at vendor lock-in and nobody should use it.

What Proton is doing is pushing for vendor lock-in at any possible point so you’re stuck with what they deem acceptable because it’s easier for them to build a service this way and makes more sense from a business / customer retention perspective. Proton is doing to e-mail about the same that WhatsApp and Messenger did to messaging - instead of just using an open protocol like XMPP they opted for their closed thing in order to lock people into their apps. People in this community seem to be okay with this just because they sell the “privacy” cool-aid.

People complain when others use Google or Microsoft for e-mail around here, but at least in those providers you can access your e-mail through standard protocols. How ironic it is to see privacy / freedom die hard fans suddenly going for a company that is far less open than the big providers… just because of marketing. :)

Proton is just a company that wants profits and found out there was a niche of people who would buy into everything that they label as “encryption” and “privacy” no matter what the cost. They’ve learnt how to weaponize “privacy” to push more and more vendor lock-in. Not even Apple does this bullshit.

Now, I can see anyone commenting “oh but they have to it because of security” - no they don’t. That’s bullshit.

Any generic IMAP/SMPT provider + Thunderbird + PGP will provide the same level of security that Proton does - that is assuming they didn’t mess their client-side encryption/decryption or key storage in some way. PGP makes sure all your e-mail content is encrypted and that’s it, doesn’t matter if it’s done by Thunderbird and the e-mails are stored in Gmail OR if it’s done by the Proton bridge and the e-mails are on their servers, the same PGP tech the only difference is the client. So, no, there isn’t the reason to do it the way they do it besides vendor lock-in.

What a piss of an excuse that is ahah

And why do you need to go back?

This is amazing. People were perfectly okay with ignoring all the red flags in Proton and their products and really okay with buying all their bullshit, then a tweet saying Trump comes up and that’s it. lol

Well, the problem is… they did: https://developer.arm.com/Architectures/Unified Extensible Firmware Interface

But then came along the Pi guys that should’ve implemented an UEFI to push the market into that direction but never did.

The new Snapdragon X machines actually seem to have UEFIs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-Damzgq5Bg&t=978s&pp=2AHSB5ACAQ%3D%3D

But we need more, tablets with open boot and drivers are important.

Yet another year, yet another “this is going to be the year of the Linux desktop”.

What would make Linux actually work out was if GNOME got their shit together instead of wasting time and resources on pointless stuff. Another big thing with Linux would be if someone could get some vendor like Lenovo to open all their ARM tablets, implement an UEFI like they should have from the start and provide basic drivers.

Linux is useless for the majority of regular users, at least for work, because you don’t have xyz proprietary software, however it could work out well as a home machine for web surfing and simple documents. People would probably be happy to buy cheap ~200$ tablets from Lenovo and get a full desktop experience from those.

Well, this solves nothing. I don’t really know what’s going on with Thunderbird but it is looking like a piece of crap, the latest UI changes made it worse, a few months after the other revision that was actually much more visually pleasing. Is it that hard to look at what others do instead of adding random boxes everywhere?

Anyways, the worst part is that right now Thunderbird wastes more RAM than RoundCube running inside a browser with the Calendars and Contacts plugins. Makes no sense.

Well… If you’re running a modern version of Proxmox then you’re already running LXC containers so why not move to Incus that is made by the same people?

Proxmox (…) They start off with stock Debian and work up from there which is the way many distros work.

Proxmox has been using Ubuntu’s kernel for a while now.

Now, if Proxmox becomes toxic

Proxmox is already toxic, it requires a payed license for the stable version and updates. Furthermore the Proxmox guys have been found to withhold important security updates from non-stable (not paying) users for weeks.

My little company has a lot of VMware customers and I am rather busy moving them over. I picked Proxmox (Hyper-V? No thanks) about 18 months ago when the Broadcom thing came about and did my own home system first and then rather a lot of testing.

If you’re expecting the same type of reliably you’ve from VMware on Proxmox you’re going to have a very hard time soon. I hope not, but I also know how Proxmox works.

I run Promox since 2009 and until very recently, professionally, in datacenters, multiple clusters around 10-15 nodes each which means that I’ve been around for all wins and fails of Proxmox. I saw the raise and fall of OpenVZ, the subsequent and painful move to LXC and the SLES/RHEL compatibility issues.

While Proxmox works most of the time and their payed support is decent I would never recommend it to anyone since Incus became a thing. The Promox PVE kernel has a lot of quirks, for starters it is build upon Ubuntu’s kernel – that is already a dumpster fire of hacks waiting for someone upstream to implement things properly so they can backport them and ditch their own implementations – and then it is a typically older version so mangled and twisted by the extra features garbage added on top.

I got burned countless times by Proxmox’s kernel. Broken drivers, waiting months for fixes already available upstream or so they would fix their own bugs. As practice examples, at some point OpenVPN was broken under Proxmox’s kernel, the Realtek networking has probably been broken for more time than working. ZFS support was introduced only to bring kernel panics. Upgrading Proxmox is always a shot in the dark and half of the time you get a half broken system that is able to boot and pass a few tests but that will randomly fail a few days later.

Proxmox’s startup is slow, slower than any other solution – it even includes management daemons that are there just there to ensure that other daemons are running. Most of the built-in daemons are so poorly written and tied together that they don’t even start with the system properly on the first try.

Why keep dragging all of the Proxmox overhead and potencial issues, if you can run a clean shop with Incus, actually made by the same people who make LXC?

You may not want to depend on those cloud services and if you need something not static, doesn’t cut it.